Transcript
(music)
WALKER: Well, our class is closing on a high note.
(inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
WALKER: And I can understand -- we've had a wonderful fellowship together. But I think we could take a few minutes of this chapel time for the benefit of the men who preached this morning to give some critique to what they've done. And we're grateful to all three of them for sharing with us today. I'm a little bit apologetic -- in this instance alone we are giving a critique on the same day of the sermon.
I'd just like to let it [set a little?] on our hearts and be done with it. But we are part of the academic arena, [and we?] ...
(inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
WALKER: I want to make a couple parenthetical comments. When you preach to ministers' conferences, and to other preachers, that's the most dangerous preaching there is. See, there are two kind of "amens."
(inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
WALKER: See, there's the "amen" of the folk. And then there's the professional "amen." Now, that's the dangerous one. Because that "amen" is emitted -- you know, it just comes -- it's like a punctuation. And because preachers themselves -- and I'm saying this because it's been reflected [in class?] --
are anxious to hear good preaching, for the most part. And as we say, they push you. But this "amen" can destroy your pace and rhythm and get you all messed up, if you don't remain in control, see. You have to kind of deal with this secondarily. This "amen" of the folk is a -- is
generally from the heart. There are a few laymen who do professional amening too. But this is generally from the heart, and you can work off of this "amen" with a great deal of confidence. You work off of this "amen," you can get in trouble, you see. And I think Brother Russell can appreciate that more than anybody else, because...
I hate to preach to preachers. I don't say I hate to -- I'm least anxious to preach to preachers. It's -- it takes a great deal of discipline.
M: Now what are you accusing us? You mean, are we in the first --
WALKER: No.
M: -- or the second?
WALKER: No, I'm not -- it was evident today when Brother Russell got to a couple of places that the brethren were really, you know, pushing him a little bit. And if he reacted to that, he would've destroyed what he was trying to do in his preaching.
M: (inaudible)
WALKER: No, he -- no, that's what I'm really making a -- I'm commending your restraint. All right. Let's deal with Brother [Chapman?]. And these of necessity will have to be brief, because we only have till about 10:20, and I guess some of us will want to get coffee or something. Thought your text was well taken. Your title, "God Power," was good.
It was contemporary. And all preaching of prophets ought to be contemporary. See, you're not prophetic if you're not contemporary. Your style is considerably different from what, you know, we're used to, but you did it effectively and you have a good sense of timing to give ordinary words a subtle meaning, you know. You would pause and get (inaudible). I thought you did a good job on
that. I have here, "Your low-key style was effective. Good progression and good movement through your idea." Dr. [Fritsch?], you going to --
M: May I say a word --
WALKER: -- comment on Brother --
M: -- word about that?
WALKER: -- Chapman?
M: (inaudible) stand up, but (inaudible) -- I feel the same way, that -- again, this matter of rhythm [has?] very effective [because?] you brought out (inaudible) as you did it, leading us up and then coming down on a lower key, then going up. But the only warning I would give to you on that basis, or on that point, is that you don't lose -- here I'm going into public speaking areas,
but at least I learned that --
WALKER: Yes. It's essential.
M: -- that you want to --
WALKER: Speak from your gut.
M: -- (inaudible) I don't want to [say?] maybe under control, but give it enough support that you get across, you see -- now here I was in the front seat, and I missed the name of that woman completely, because you were way down there that one point. And when I realized that, I kept thinking about this, and of course you did it several times. But even in the front row I could hardly get some of your words. Now it's effective, but you still have to have enough support here to get it across that this
great effectiveness means something to the audience, you see, because it's not just the emotion, but they want to know what you're saying, too. So I'd watch that, to continue this idea, but not to get so low that nobody knows what you said.
WALKER: Yeah, there is a way to be -- and I think we ought to say this. Some -- I don't know who it is -- one man's cup of tea is another man's poison. Everybody can't [hoot?], you know. And everybody can't be loud, you know. You got to develop your style that suits you best. Now, there is a way to talk conversationally, as I am doing now, but I'm sure you're all aware that I'm also projecting, see. It's not like when I'm talking to you at the
coffee break, see. And this is, I think, the fine point that Dr. Fritsch is underscoring -- not the fine, but the essential point. For instance, I had laymen participate in my services, and the problem that I always have is that they get up there before that mic and freeze, and they talk like they're talking to me, you know, outside the study -- which doesn't work when you got 700 people out there. You must try to speak conversationally, but you have to slow your pace and throw out your voice,
even though you may not be, as we say, in high gear. So I hope you'll take our comments and work on them. Brother Jones. Now you lifted that text out of Amos, is that right?
M: (inaudible).
WALKER: But it was the reference to the oppressed -- you -- wasn't that also...
M: It came from Amos -- Exodus. It came from Exodus. (inaudible)
WALKER: Did you say Amos?
M: No, it came from Exodus.
WALKER: I know, but did you say something about Amos?
M: [No?], (inaudible).
WALKER: Anybody hear him say anything about Amos?
M: Yes, he said...
He said Amos. [I heard?] Amos.
WALKER: You said Amos.
M: I said Amos?
WALKER: You said Amos. Because when I wrote it down...
(inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
M: (inaudible) he also said "Michael Luther King." So, you know...
WALKER: Well, he was being historically accurate. That was really his name.
M: Well, I [thought his name?] was Michael Lewis. (inaudible).
WALKER: Huh?
M: [He?] said Michael (inaudible; overlapping dialogue) ...
WALKER: That's his name! That was his original...
(inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
WALKER: Huh?
M: Was his name Michael Luther or Michael Lewis?
WALKER: Michael Luther King. That was his original, God-given name. And Daddy changed it later, when he was a youngster, to Martin Luther King. His name originally was Michael King. Did -- were you aware of that, Chapman?
M: No.
WALKER: I mean, Jones?
M: No.
WALKER: Yeah. It's a generally known fact, I thought. Yes?
M: I've heard people call him Mike.
WALKER: Mike. That's where it came from.
M: I heard (inaudible; overlapping dialogue).
WALKER: His original name, he -- it was -- he was in junior high somewhere, and his daddy decided to change both of their names, and they changed [them?] -- my -- for instance, my name is not Wyatt T. -- it wasn't Wyatt T. Walker. It is now, as of 1969. I was named for one of the early black millionaires. My name was [Watt Terry?]. And I never could explain to people what my name was, so -- I was going down Second Street to [Richmond?]
one day, and I saw a storage truck, Wyatt Storage, and I saw if I dropped a Y in there, it'd be Wyatt, and my nickname as a child was "T", and I made it phonetic, and that's how I got to be Wyatt T. Walker.
M: If you would've kept [Walker?], you could've said you were electrifying.
WALKER: They used to ask me what's my name? They'd say, "What's your name?" I'd say, "Watt." They'd say, "[What?]?"
M: Well...
WALKER: (inaudible). Now, move on Brother Jones. You made an inference there about the gun and the sword, coming with the gun and the sword in His hand, and you didn't pursue it, and, you know, you left me -- I didn't know whether you meant that that's the kind of Christ we're following? Me, I think if you're for a violent program, it's your decision to say it, you know, but you -- you kind of -- with me, you left it. I didn't...
M: Well, (inaudible).
WALKER: That we needed a violent revolution?
M: (inaudible) say that he will -- that [Moses?] will come, you know, as -- to make a [conviction?], prophetic statement, that he actually will come -- the [most?] (inaudible; overlapping dialogue) ...
WALKER: With a gun and a sword.
M: (inaudible) sword, see. I just made the inference.
WALKER: You know, well, if you wanted to make the inference, you were successful. But you kind of left a -- just left it hanging, like, you know, if I was in your (inaudible) I wouldn't sure -- wasn't sure whether I should continue -- if I'm in the nonviolent way or whether I should change my [tacks?] and go get me a 30-caliber rifle over and under, you know.
M: Over and under.
WALKER: The quotations, at points, were disjointed. I mean disjointed in the way you gave them. You hadn't developed -- for instance, give me one of those songs you did. [For instance?] ...
M: "Blessed Assurance"?
WALKER: Yeah, "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine. Heir of salvation, purchased of God, born of His Spirit, washed in His blood." This is my -- you've got to put it together, Doc, see? See, the (inaudible) -- but you were dropping off of it, you know. And I guess maybe was the -- you know, it's a matter of developing familiarity with your manuscript, see. You got to put that together for folks. There again we're talking about rhythm and pace, etc.
Now I have here, "Your emphasis was on pattern." What I mean by that: there's some preachers who, when they're preaching, they'll say -- I'm just reading off of this. Well, let me -- I better take something -- I'll take Russell's [singing?]. "There were two elements! in this decision of Moses! as there are in all..." You know, you -- if you -- you have to put your emphases where the emphases ought to be, rather than just indiscriminately. You get -- I think you get my
point. I'm making a caricature of it, but that's what I'm talking 'bout. Some preachers who copy their sermons right out of sermon books, they just put emphasis just -- they make sure there's emphasis, doesn't matter where it fall. And you a little [unpatterned?] in that. You had a good closing, but you missed one of our suggestions. Sometimes a good slide home will make up for getting on base
with an error and trying to steal second and the second baseman dropped the ball when you should've been pegged out and going to third on a balk, see. And a good slide home will make up for all of it, see? So I always talk about make sure you know when you turning third base, see? And then you got to be able to slide into that, you see? You don't want to be reading your closing, see? And you could've been a little more familiar with (inaudible) -- and that is a tremendously
effective closing, you know. Most experienced preachers, they keep about 20 closings in the back of their mind, so if one ain't working, they'll shift it up.
M: You heard about the minister who [went all through?] a weak point, so he put in the margin, "Yell like hell."
WALKER: Yeah, that's an oft-told tale, oft-told myth that they put (inaudible).
M: And [you?] don't do that.
WALKER: No. But I take great care with my closing. I know, generally, where I'm going to close. And I got to -- I don't have to look at no paper to get it, you know. And one of the things that I say all over again is it's helpful to maintain eye contact with your congregation. And one of the things that I notice all over again with us who are not as experienced in preaching in this class is that the eye contact is not as good as
it could be, you know, to look at certain individuals here. I'm pleased that we've had some sound effects and whatnot in this -- the spontaneous singing that takes place. One of two places there I was glad that this is not a class on singing.
But I ought to say this -- every preacher, if you have to rehearse it, you ought to learn how to pitch. You ought to have a half a dozen hymns that you know you can pitch at the right tune, because you going to get to a place (inaudible) ain't going to be no piano, there ain't going to be nobody to sing. And it helps get that mood, see. Now I'm not known for singing, but I manage, see. And I work at it. And there about -- I guess that I know maybe about 30 hymns that I know I can pitch at the right sort of --
see, all you got to do is get about the first three or four words and the folk just pick it up, see, and then you on your way, see. And you ought to really develop the facility of doing that. If you don't know how to do that, you ought to try it. And you make some mistakes, but you need to learn how to -- learn the (inaudible) of starting a congregational or prayer-meeting style hymn, see. And it's particularly effective with young preachers, because, see, folk have a basic hostility toward young preachers, see, because you ain't -- you don't know nothing. You ain't have no experience, see. But if you can come up with
"Another day's journey, I'm so glad..." "He's from down home, see?" See? And it builds a little rapport, see?
M: It's a tremendously important point you're making. Theatrically, in terms of addressing your audience, or in terms of establishing contact, it's a very important point.
WALKER: Yeah, see? There -- as I say, there's something that -- there's a transferal and a giving and taking back and forth between a congregation and a minister. And particularly when you're going around from place to place, when you don't have your -- for instance, with my own congregation, you know, I know where the keys are, you know. And it's like a man playing an organ. I say this in the most positive sense. But for a guest minister who comes in and
who doesn't quite know the audience -- now, when I have guest preachers, a lot of fellows get messed up in my church, because they are more familiar with my academic credentials, my so-called "good mind" and all that, that they think that I must have an intellectual situation, you know, and they got to come there with some Churchillian prose and some Fosdickian structure, see? And after they say about four words, one of them sisters said, "Preach it, son!" and he -- you know, he's all
messed up, because he ain't got -- he doesn't have the right ammunition (inaudible), see.
M: [You are?] saying something very, very important, about what preaching really --
WALKER: You know, Russell, I like the way you preface your comments. [Go ahead?].
M: (inaudible) in the context of a [pastoral?] relationship. And if you don't have that established that, then you can't go anywhere. You're (inaudible).
WALKER: You got to -- and if you're new, you got to find it. Now you wanted to comment about Brother Jones, Brother Fritsch.
M: No, I have [moved?] (inaudible).
WALKER: All right. Now Brother Russell, I just let it go like it is. And I'm sure you all know that I'm very candid [and forth?], but I think Russell is an unusually fine preacher. He shows a great deal of maturity. I didn't even write any notes. See, I've been reading his sermons, and I said to my deputy, Brother (inaudible), that I was anxious to hear Russell preach. I look at the way a man writes his sermon. A man writes a good sermon, he --
[nine?] (inaudible) bound to preach a good sermon. And, fellas, we're a little hard on you this morning; they were pushing you a little bit. But you did -- I think -- did very well. I did make a couple notes on your manuscript. Your points are very sharp, you know, and catchy. For instance, the points you made at -- about the fact that
just to say no is not sufficient. You know, people who live in the negative. It must be a positive. Just to say no is not enough. You got to make a positive determination of what you're going to do. Then your development. You talked about, "On the other hand, we must know that this decision is a costly one." And you enumerated. It was costly for social -- you know, it's very simple and logical. Then you made your big turn,
as I take it, as the consequences of saying yes. You're saying yes to suffering. [Made?] a nice delineation on that. The only mild criticism that I might have is that maybe you had a little more than the average [congregation?] could digest in one sermon. But I take into account that we're here in this seminary, in an academic arena, and you
were -- you know, I think you would have preached this sermon a little more -- a little differently at Canaan than you did here, see. But an excellent effort, in my judgment. See -- and you wrapped it up, and in spite of the temptation, when you were through, you were through. I was a little fearful that the way we were carrying on, you know, that you might be a little -- you'd decide to add something [on in?], but you did the right thing. You had planned what you were going to do, you had your battle plan, and you -- when you did it, you set down.
M: (inaudible)
WALKER: Hmm?
M: That he had communicated enough that he was confident in what he was doing (inaudible) what [we wanted?] (inaudible).
WALKER: That's right, yeah.
M: Could relate to [him?].
(inaudible) were going to do.
No.
I told myself that I wasn't going to (inaudible).
WALKER: I sensed there was a little good-natured joshing in this professional "amen" that was (inaudible).
M: [But did you?] ...
Well, I...
WALKER: See, when you -- when the word, when the rumor's out that you (inaudible), they will find out whether you are or not.
M: We had (inaudible; overlapping dialogue).
WALKER: See, that -- and you couldn't do that -- see, you couldn't do that with [Smitty?], because Smitty'd been around too long, see? Smitty got up here and just took charge of [him?] till he was through with him. But see, Russell is here with you, and I understand the peer pressure. But...
M: I wish Ulysses would preach. We'd really get on him now. He had the first sermon, so we were -- (inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
WALKER: Yeah, we didn't really get a chance to -- we didn't really get a crack at you. You going to be in this class next semester?
M: I'd like to (inaudible).
WALKER: Yeah, well, we going to slide you down later. Plus I want to get -- I want to be under his preaching to pay him back a little bit.
M: That's what we wanted.
WALKER: Ulysses tries to push me up there (inaudible). [So now?] (inaudible) focus saying "amen" to me or "amen" to his [congregants?]. All right. Well, let's go get some coffee, and let me underscore what Dr. Fritsch has said, that this has been a wonderful fellowship, and I have been stimulated tremendously, and I have --
M: We still have a -- (inaudible; overlapping dialogue)
WALKER: -- I've learned a great deal.
(unrelated material, not transcribed)