Transcript
Welcome to the Kindlings Muse Podcast, an intelligent, imaginative, hospitable exploration of ideas that matter in contemporary life. And now here's your host, Dick Staub. Well, welcome everybody to the Kindlings Muse at Earl Palmer Ministries. And this event, as you know, is taped for podcast in front of a live audience at the Burke Museum Cafe on the campus of the University of Washington at a beautiful French paneled coffee shop at the Burke Museum Cafe. The show is
built around the idea that Reverend Earl Palmer selects a book that every thoughtful person ought to read. When we first designed this show, I attended his church in Berkeley and I said, you know, I used to listen to you and I would be jotting down things all the time that, oh, I need to read that. I need to read that. And so every month we take one of those books that Earl has read that has influenced
his thinking and get a chance to hear his thoughts on it and then get the live audience to do that as well. Tonight, we're going to be talking about Faith and Doubt, One Man's Struggle, looking at a very interesting character, John Bunyan, whose most well-known book is Pilgrim's Progress. And I'd like you to join me in welcoming Earl Palmer tonight. [Palmer] Well, John Bunyan is an interesting, very interesting person to just consider his life. He was
born in 1628 and he died in 1688, just some 60 years later. He's a contemporary of George Herbert and George Herbert was a poet and a marvelous poet who wrote absolutely amazing poetry and some great hymns, who was a great influence on C.S. Lewis was George Herbert. And so they're contemporaries. So it's interesting you get these two men, though I don't know that they knew each other at all, but there's John Bunyan. He was converted
to Christianity as a young man and became a part of the independent church. Now in America, you can be an independent church and believe me, nobody bothers you. But when the royalists found out that he was an independent church, they threw him in prison. And John Bunyan was in prison twice for being an independent church pastor and actually some 14 years in prison. The second imprisonment is when he decided to write this book and he wrote
Pilgrim's Progress in prison. And then he went after he got out after the royalists lost favor and then he got out again and he was then a pastor in the little city of Bedford and played out the rest of his life as a pastor. But it's interesting that this book, if you read any book on literature and the story of literature in the English language, it is often called the father of the modern novel. And it's
a classic. It is a truly classic book. And some people also make a joke about Pilgrim's Progress since when the Pilgrims came to America, the story is that they all had just two books with them because they were separatists, see, they were independent like he was and they were not royalists. And so they had the Holy Bible and Pilgrim's Progress. That may or may not have been true, but a lot of the Pilgrims came with this
book. So it's a classic. But it's now considered the classic that no one reads. There are classics that no one reads, a little bit like Canterbury Tales are classics that nobody reads. They're terribly classical. And that can be true of some music, too, the music that nobody listens to. But this book deserves to be read, believe me. It has humor in it. It is like a novel. It is a novel, really. It's a story of a
dream that he had. That's how he starts the book off. He starts it off by saying, I had a dream. By the way, Bunyan struggled with depression. A lot of his life being in prison didn't help, I'm sure. But he did struggle with depression. And maybe, who knows, he worked out some of his own feelings and angst writing this story. Next month, we're going to talk about J.R.R. Tolkien and look at his great classic, The Lord
of the Rings. And many people feel that Tolkien was working out post-traumatic stress syndrome in writing The Silmarillion, and then The Lord of the Rings, a great story of the battle between good and evil. Again, working out some of the terribly life-shattering experiences that Tolkien had in World War I. That could well be true. Some people even think that Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia were also the same. He was working out, he said, I wrote
stories like I always wanted to read. But was he also working out in Chronicles of Narnia some of the same post-traumatic stress syndrome that he experienced? Because both he and Tolkien were badly wounded in World War I, and they saw death up close in the Battle of Somme, where thousands and thousands of soldiers died. All quiet in the Western Front was written about that Battle of Somme. Lewis and Tolkien were both in it. So Bunyan,
thrown in prison, kept there unjustly for all this period. It is true that in the feelings of depression and weariness and loneliness and all the rest, he decided one day I'm going to write a story about that? And the story he works out, it's like a novel. And so what is it about? He starts it off immediately by saying that I had a dream, and in this dream I saw a man, and this man that I
saw, had a book in his hand and a great burden on his back. And the book in his hand, of course, is the Bible. He had the Bible in his hand and a great burden on his back, and as a result he felt in great despair in this story. And so that's how the story starts. And right away in the first two or three chapters, I have an unabridged copy, you should always get an unabridged copy
of Pilgrim's Progress, and don't let them change any of the words because the marvelous old English words that are used in this story are so great and very witty. You'll see it's one of my favorite texts. It should not be changed, and some people have changed it, which is a great loss. But right away at the very beginning of the book, this man with the book that made him feel terribly downtrodden because it confronted him with
his sinfulness and this burden he had on his back, and right away he meets a man named Evangelist. Now get ready. This is a pure allegory. Everybody's going to have a hilarious name. Now you're going to meet such funny people like Pliable. The names give you a clue to the people you're going to meet. Talkative. You're going to meet Talkative. You're going to meet Great Heart. You're going to meet Help. All these people that he meets,
including the Pilgrim. He's Pilgrim first, then he sometimes is called Christian, but he's usually a Pilgrim or Christian. He'll have all these companions that he'll have during his time. He'll meet the devil, but the devil is not called the devil. It's called Apollyon, which is one word used for the devil in the book of Revelation. Everything is got named, and it's all allegorical. It is terribly downtime in his life, and he meets Evangelist. You get so
many interesting clues to the wisdom of Bunyan and the subtlety of Bunyan. Mind you, this is written in the 1600s, but listen to the subtlety in the way Bunyan handles the whole issues of faith and doubt and everything in the opening of the book. I'll read that part. The man, therefore, read it looking upon Evangelist. He meets Evangelist, and then because Evangelist started telling him there was good news and that Christ was the way and he
could find him in his word and he could have hope for this burden and this feeling of despair that he had, and so Evangelist said, you can find it in this book, and so he says, but you have to go and find it, and so the man said, wither must I fly, and then said Evangelist pointing with his finger to a very wide field. Do you see yonder Wicket-gate? Not wicked, but wicket, you know, wood
gate. You see yonder wood gate? The man said, no. And then said Evangelist, the other, do you see yonder shining light? And then he said, I think so. Hey, aren't you interested in this? That instead of having his character start off with absolute faith, absolute trust, great discovery, Evangelist able to show it to him, it's all in the area of, well, not quite, maybe. He saw that interesting, what you might call ambiguity right here at the
very beginning, a subtlety that's not common in literature written at that time. So listen to it. He says, no, I don't see the Wicket-gate. Do you see yonder light? He says, I think I do. Then said Evangelist, isn't it interesting, Evangelist doesn't say, well, you've got very bad eyesight and you don't have enough faith, come back tomorrow. He doesn't say that. Evangelist instead says, keep that light in your eye and go directly therefore, and then
you'll see the gate at which when you knock, you'll be told what you should do next. It's interesting. Just keep the light in your eye. Go to what you can see. Make the best move you can make. It's the way Bunyan is treating faith. It's not absolute faith. You must now trust God and trust Christ. No, no, do you see the light? Well, I think I do. Well, follow that. You'll find a gate and then you'll
be told what to do. It almost sounds like the road to Damascus where Paul is after Paul has this great encounter with Christ. You expect to make it a good story. Christ would say when Paul says, what should I do? He should say, go into all the world and preach the gospel, beginning in Jerusalem. No, no. Instead, he says, go to Damascus and you'll find out. It's almost go to Damascus, you'll find out there. And
so you'll be told. So I saw in my dream that the man began to run. Now he had not run very far from his own door and he starts to move toward this gate. Well, OK, he goes through the gate and immediately he's in a great Slew of Dispond. There are a couple of these that are quite funny in a way. The Slew of Dispond, the Valley of Humiliation, and then the Valley of the Shadow of
Death. He's got three of those terrible things to go through. So he gets into the Slew of Dispond in which he becomes extremely discouraged, though he goes through the gate and then finds himself in the slew. And I think some of that is absolutely marvelous insight in that in the Slew of Dispond. By the way, one of his friends started to go with him has already decided to go back. And that's pliable. Pliable when they got
to the Slew of Dispond, decided to go back. He was offended by it. And so the pilgrim Christian is now in the Slew of Dispond and he doesn't know what to do. And now comes a man named Help. And Help comes up and says, Well, didn't you look for the steps? And Christian, fear followed me so hard that I fled the next way and I fell in the slew. Then he said, Give me thy hand.
So he gave him his hand and he drew him out and set him on the step. There are steps in the Slew of Dispond that the owner of the slew has put there. So again, Bunyan sees a kind of gradualism. There's a gradualism of growth and discovery. And in the Slew of Dispond, it is not the pleasure that the king, it was not the pleasure that the slew should stay as it is. But he has sent
his laborers and surveyors to build steps in the Slew of Dispond. And so the steps are there. You just have to walk on them and step on them. So he comes up the slew, and then a great moment occurs, which is probably one of the most famous moments in the Pilgrim's Progress. When he, and it's early on in the book, he comes up a hill and at the hill, there's a cross on the top
of the hill. And when he comes up to the cross on the top of the hill, he his burden, there he comes up to the hill and his burden falls off his back, at the foot of the cross. His burden falls off and tumbles down. And so now the burden that he was carrying is now been taken by Jesus Christ. So you think, well, now the story is over.
He's now going to be all he's supposed to be. But that's not what happens. From there, he moves on into the Valley of Humiliation, after the burden has been taken off. He's experienced salvation, and he meets Apollyon in the Valley of Humiliation. And Apollyon basically is a tempter who tries to tempt him. And the interesting temptation in Apollyon's encounter with Christian is to make him realize that he is very worthless. And it's interesting that if
there's two kinds of temptation, the temptation to pride and the temptation to despair. According to in Bunyan's case, the main temptation of Apollyon, or the Devil, is to tempt you to despair, not to tempt you as much to pride. You're going to see the next city he's going to go to is Vanity Fair. And there, there will be the temptation to pride and the temptation of wealth, the temptation to have and to get your meaning that
way. But with Apollyon in the Valley of Humiliation, he's being tempted with the fact that he's worthless. But fortunately, he picks up another friend there and the friend he picks up in the Valley of Humiliation is Faithful. And so Faithful goes with him and then comes a sort of very sad part of the story when they come to the city of Vanity Fair. As you know, we've got magazines named after that city now, Vanity Fair, but
it first appeared in Pilgrim's Progress. So they go into Vanity Fair and in Vanity Fair, they're tempted there to want to have things and want to buy in to the culture of Vanity Fair, this city where everybody is wealthy and there's all kinds of prosperity, but it's corrupt. It's a corrupt city. And at any rate, during the time in Vanity Fair, Faithful gets arrested by the people and you'll see in a minute they're going to kill
him. They're going to stone him and kill him. And that's a sad part of this book. But it's interesting that in Vanity Fair, you can see some of the names that become so famous as the names that we meet in the Pilgrim's Progress. And I thought of all the places where names are. I told you about Pliable, I told you about Talkative, and I told you about Help, and I told you about Evangelist, and I told
you about Faithful. Now in Vanity Fair, you meet a great list of names, and I just couldn't resist giving you a little bit of Bunyan's humor in the names he has. So they went to the jury. The jury is going to try Faithful, and their names were Mr. Blind-man, Mr. No-good, Mr. Malice, Mr. Love-lust, Mr. Live-loose, Mr. Heady, Mr. High-mind, Mr. Enmity, Mr. Lyar, Mr. Cruelty, Mr. Hate-light, Mr. Implacable. These are
all the characters that they meet, their all in the jury. And they gave in private a verdict against Faithful among themselves, and afterwards they unanimously concluded to bring him in guilty before the judge. And the first among themselves, Mr. Blind-man, the foreman said, I can see clearly that this man is a heretic. And then said Mr. No-good, away with such a fellow from the earth, Ay said Mr. Malice, for I hate the very look of him.
And then said Mr. Love-lust, I could never endure him. Interesting. And nor I, said Mr. Live-loose, for he would always be condemning my way. And hang him, hang him, said Mr. Heady. A sorry Scrub, said Mr. High-mind. My heart riseth against him, said Mr. Enmity. He is a Rogue, said Mr. Lyar. Hanging is too good for him, said Mr. Cruelty. Let us dispatch him out of the way, said Mr. Hate-light. And then Mr.
Implacable, might I have the world given to me, I would not be reconciled to him. You can see the humor of Bunyan in the way he sets up this dialogue, and all these hilarious characters, depending on what you think about those characters, but there they are, that's the city of Vanity Fair. Okay, Christian gets out of the city with his life, but Faithful is killed. But he's joined up with another friend named Hopeful. And Mr. Hopeful
will go with Christian for the rest of the journey. And one more thing happens to them, and it's that scene that I want to focus on mainly. It's, I would say in Pilgrim's Progress, it's my favorite scene. And my favorite scene occurs with Hopeful and Christian on the king's highway, on their way to the Celestial City, trying to find the fulfillment of their lives, trying to find what God's will is for their lives. And while they're
on their way, they get a little sleepy, and they get a little bit disoriented, and they lose their way. And somehow, not intending to, they got off the main pathway and ended up in a field, and they don't know where they are because it's night. So anyway, now there they were, neither could they get back on the road. So they decide to sit down there until daybreak. And being weary, they fell asleep. Now, there was not
far from the place where they lay a castle called Doubting-Castle. The owner thereof was Giant Despair. And now you're going to have the great battle with Faith and Doubt in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. And I think it's one of the classic scenes in this whole book, maybe in many books that I've ever read. And it was his grounds that they were now sleeping on. Therefore, he, getting up in the morning early and walking up and
down the fields, he caught Christian and Hopeful asleep on his grounds, in his grounds. And then with a grim and surly voice, he bid them awake and asked them whence they were, and when did they come into his grounds. And they told him they were pilgrims and that they had lost their way. And then said the Giant, You have this night trespassed on me by trampling in and lying on my grounds, and therefore you must go
along with me. And so they were forced to go because he was stronger than they. And they also had little to say, for they knew themselves to be at fault. It's interesting. In this picture, they fell into this ground because they were disoriented. They were tired. They got off the road. So they know they're at fault. And notice this is now going to feed into their self-doubt. You're going to get, it's almost like Saint Peter
after the resurrection of our Lord. And the self-doubt of Saint Peter. Now watch it work with these men. They knew that's why they had to follow him. So Giant Despair takes them because they knew that they were in his property. So the giant therefore drove them before him, put them into his castle, into a very dark dungeon, nasty and stinking to the spirits of these two men. And here they lay from Wednesday morning till Saturday
night, without one bit of bread or drop of drink or light or any to ask how they did. And they were therefore in an evil case. And they were far from friends and acquaintance. Don't you love the old English? And now in this place, Christian had a double sorrow because it was through his unadvised haste that they were brought into this distress. It's like, you know, Peter's awareness of his betrayal, awareness of what he's done that's
wrong that has brought him here to this place. Now Giant Despair had a wife. This is the funny part of the story. And her name was Diffidence. I once led a Bible study, I once led a discussion group through this book and we had fun with some of the names, trying to think of contemporary names for some of these characters. And I'll tell you that my little group, when we went through this character, they decided to
name her Aggressive Apathy. That's Diffidence. The wife of Giant Despair is aggressive. If you can think of apathy being aggressive, that's Diffidence. You watch, she's Aggressive Apathy. That was my group's original name for her. So Aggressive Apathy, or who is now Mrs. Diffidence, the wife of Giant Despair, when they had gone to bed, he told his wife what he had done to wit that he had taken a couple of prisoners and cast them into his dungeon
for trespassing on his grounds. And then he asked her what he should do with them. And she asked him where they were whence they came and whether they were bound. And he told her, and then she counseled him, that when he arose in the morning, he should beat them without mercy. So when he arose, he got his Grievous Crab-tree Crudgel, and he goes down to the dungeon to them and they first fell to rating of them.
First he rated them and you know, shouted at them. And then, I don't want to lose this place because this is so good, he rated them with his Grievous Crabtree Crudgel. And then, as if they were dogs, though they never gave him a word of distaste, and then he falls upon them and beats them fearfully in such a sort that they were not able to help themselves or to turn them from the floor. This done,
he withdraws and leaves them there to condole their misery and to mourn under the distress. And so they spent their time, nothing but sighs and bitter lamentations. The next night she, Mrs. Diffidence, talking with her husband about them further and understanding that they were still alive. And then she did advise him to counsel them to make a way with themselves. That's why we decided to call her Aggressive Apathy. Apathy is one thing, but Aggressive Apathy means
that it's suicidal. Just advise them to kill themselves. That's what she advises her husband, Giant Despair, to tell these two guys. This is very interesting when you think of it. So she said she advised him to counsel them to make a way with themselves. So when morning came, he goes down to them in a surly manner, as before in perceiving them to be very sore with the stripes that he had given them the day before, he
told them that since they were never like to come out of this place, they would only way they would forthwith make an end to themselves, either with knife, halter, or poison. He even suggests the ways to commit suicide. That's what he thinks they should do. And he said, should you choose life, seeing as it attended with so much bitterness, but then they desired him to let them go, with that he looked ugly upon them, and rushing
to them, had doubtless made an end of them himself, but he fell into one of his fits. Watch now. Giant Despair is very powerful, but he has fits. Keep your eye on that. I love plots when they begin to unfold, and you notice one little flaw. He would have killed them, except he had one of his fits. Lost strength for a minute. So he had one of his fits, he lost for a time the use of
his hands. Therefore, he withdrew and left them, as before, to consider what to do. And then did the prisoners consult with themselves whether it was best to take his counsel or not. And thus they began a discourse. This is fantastic discourse. Christian says, brother, said Christian, what shall we do? The life we now live is miserable. For my part, I know not whether it is best to live thus or to die out of hand. My soul
chuseth strangling rather than life. He's already picked a method of suicide. They always say if you're a counselor that when someone suggests one way they might do it, then be really alert. I would rather have strangling than this, and he gave in more easily for me than this dungeon. Shall we be ruled by this Giant? Christian says. Hope indeed our present condition, then hopeful speaks. Our present condition is dreadful, and death would be far more
welcome to me than thus to abide here forever. But yet let us consider the Lord of the country to which we are going, said, thou shalt not commit murder. Hopeful reminds Christian of the law, the law of God. The law of God says you shall not commit murder, and that would include murdering ourselves. So that one splash of cold water, in a way, keeps Christian one more day before considering committing suicide. I think that's just kind
of interesting that Bunyan puts this in here. We're told that Bunyan also, when he was in his depression in prison, considered suicide, and maybe he's giving us something from his own experience. So anyway, with these words, hopeful at present did moderate the mind of his brother. So they continued together in the dark that day, and in their sad and doleful condition. Well, toward the evening, the giant goes down on the dungeon again to see if the
prisoners had taken his counsel. He found them alive and truly alive, and now he's really mad, and so he pointed out all the bones that are there, and he said that's what's going to happen to you. They trembled greatly, and I think that Christian fell into a Swound, dispair, but then coming to himself again, they renewed their discourse about the giant's counsel, and whether it's best to take it or not. Christian seemed to be going for it,
but hopeful made his second reply and said, Remember thou that Apollyon could not crush us, nor could the shadow of death crush us. Now we must not be crushed by this. So hopeful again gives him advice to hold on. Now night again coming, the giant and his wife, now here's the third time with Diffidence in bed with her husband, asked him concerning the prisoners if they had taken his counsel, to which he replied that they are
sturdy Rogues. They choose rather to bear all hardships than to make way with themselves. Then she said, Well, then take him into the castle courtyard and show them all the bones and skulls of those that thou hast already dispatched, and make them believe that ere a week comes to an end, you will tear them to pieces. So when morning came, the giant goes down and does that. He goes and shows them all the skulls and crossbones
and they're really in bad shape. And then he goes back to bed again that night, fourth night in bed, and then Mrs. Diffidence with her husband said when they went to bed, began to renew the discourse about the prisoners, and with that the wife replied, I fear that they live in hope that someone will come and relieve them, or they have picklocks with them by means of which they hope to escape. And sayest thou so, my
dear, said the giant, I will tomorrow search them. Well, on Saturday about midnight they began to pray. They continued in prayer till almost the break of day. This is Hopeful and Christian. And now a little before it was day, good Christian, as one half amazed, breaks out into a passionate speech. What a fool, quote he, am I, to lie in this stinking dungeon. I may as well walk at liberty. I have a key in my
bosom called Promise. One more character, only this time it's a key called Promise. That I'm persuaded it would open any lock in Doubting Castle. Then said Hopeful, I love the role that Hopeful plays. That's good news, good brother, pluck it out and try it. And then Christian pulled it out of his bosom and began to try the dungeon door. Whose bolt as he turned the key gave way and the door flew open with ease. And Christian
and Hopeful both came out. And then they went to the outward door that leads to the castle yard. And with his key he opened that door also. And after that they went to the Iron Gate that must be opened too. Here's one of my favorite lines in Pilgrim's Progress. In fact, I have carved this on a piece of driftwood, this line. I'm not kidding. It's a long line. I carved it on a piece of driftwood at
Puget Sound. And as a matter of fact, when Annie and Dan Wilson came to say farewell to me. And I said, can I give you a gift? Because he gave me a baseball from the Mariners that he had hit a home run with. And so I had that baseball and I said, can I give you something? And Annie said, can I have that carving that you did? Annie, I've carved another one of these. Because after I
gave this to you, I carved it again. But this is my favorite quotation in Pilgrim's Progress. Here it is, folks. They get to the third gate, the Iron Gate. And they take the key to the Iron Gate. And they thrust that into the, and I got,ta find it. And they found the Iron Gate, for that must be open too. But, and here's my quotation that I carved in driftwood. But that lock went damnable hard. Yet the
key did open it. Don't take it, the new translation said that lock was hard to open. Bunyan has it right. That lock went damnable hard, yet the key did open it. So they thrust open the gate toward, to make an escape with speed. But that gate as it opened made such a creaking sound that it waked Giant Despair. Who, hastily rising to pursue his prisoners, felt his limbs fail, for his fits took him again. I told
you to watch for that. Evil and despair is strong, but not that strong. It's not as strong as it looks, and that's Bunyan's insight. So they went on, they came to the king's highway, and so they were safe. That's my favorite scene in the whole book, because I think he's at a high water mark in that scene. Maybe it's because it's autobiographical, who knows. But he, notice all the themes that are present there. They are feeling
despair of real mistakes, and the despair intensifies because of the failure that they have made. And the despair accumulates in intensity to the point where they even despair of life itself. And then Hopeful saves them from doing a foolish thing by quoting the law of God. The role of, like Luther always talks about the Christian faith as the law and the gospel. The will of God, it doesn't save you, but sometimes it protects you from doing
harm. And at a certain point, it doesn't save, but it does play that role. And then Hopeful points to that, and then that buys some time. And then the key called promise, and then the three gates, and they're out. And despair, though it was powerful, was not as powerful as it seemed. And that's Bunyan. I think that's the greatness of Bunyan. [Staub] The lock went damnable hard, but the key did open it. This is Dick Stahl, we'll
be back with more of Earl Palmer, talking about John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. Don't go away. [Music Break] Well, this is Dick Stahl, back with you. You're listening to the Kindlings Muse at Earl Palmer Ministries, where tonight we're talking about John Bunyan's, Pilgrim's Progress. And you know a book has achieved fame when it has been carved in driftwood by Earl Palmer. How many quotes have you carved in driftwood? Because when you were up at Winterfest, you talked about other
ones that you had carved in driftwood. I mean, is this like... [Palmer/Staub] They're are favorite quotations of mine that I like. I used to have a... We have a little cabin, and I put on top of the door as they left, I put this carved from Mark Twain, from the Blue Jay story, the Blue Jay story, and one of his spoofs. And so I put on the top, and... But he didn't much like Yosemite either. Remember that?
Remember that in the Blue Jay story, the Blue Jays are all very... They have this funny thing, and then the owl from Alaska, Canada comes down, and he saw what the Blue Jays were laughing at, but he thought it wasn't funny. And then that's the end of Mark Twain's yarn, except there's one more line. But the owl from Canada looked at it and saw what the Blue Jays were all laughing about, and he didn't think it
was that funny. But then this line. But then he didn't much like Yosemite either. But I mean, you have quotes from Barth, you have quotes... Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I have Pascal. Have you done a hundred of these things? I have a huge Pascal quote, which I like very much. Do great things as though they were small because of Jesus Christ. Do small things as though they were great because of Jesus Christ. That's my
biggest quote. I'm trying to picture where you put, the lock went damnable hard, yet the key did open it, like over an outhouse or... No, no. Where do you put such a quote? I have it in my office. Well, this is an amazing book and a wonderful reminder. This book has been translated in more than 200 languages. Can I tell you one story, though, about carving? Could I stop you? I've been doing a lot of carving,
and I have a friend who's struggled with depression a lot. About a year ago, I got from Federal Express a box, a carton this high, and it was a piece of driftwood from... He lives in Vermont, a piece of driftwood from Vermont, and he carved on it, upomeno, because that's the word that he and I used all the time when he was facing depression. He says, but Earl, upomeno, hang in there. You have to hang in
there. And so he always quoted that to himself. And so he carved it on a piece of Vermont driftwood. It wasn't driftwood, but it was a Vermont maple. And I have that in my office, too. Upomeno. [Staub] This book, Pilgrim's Progress, has never been out of print. I mean, think about that. Since the 1600s. I don't know if you thought about it, but as an author, pretty darn good run. 400 years. So there is something about this
book that is timeless. And I don't know how many of you took the time to read it, but part of it is that imaginative language. I mean, the names are hilarious. And even though it's allegorical, which isn't everybody's cup of tea, it reminded me of kind of the fantasy literature of George McDonald in some way, and the language and the meaning behind the language. But it's funny, when Bunyan starts this book, he takes a good deal
of time defending the right to do an allegory. Why was that an issue for him? I mean, he's talking about the fact that Jesus did it, the prophets did it. Allegories are useful. He makes it clear this is about a dream, you know. Was there some particular problem in the 1600s with allegory? [Palmer] Well, yeah, you know, the York miracle plays and all the things that happened in early England to start drama, they had to be defended
because people thought they were impious. And here's the actor. Isn't that true, Nigel? They had to defend the right to do acting. And because it was seen as being very disrespectful, it's almost like it's interesting to me that when you in the attempt to honor God, if you honor him and therefore make him fragile so that he's easily offended, then you don't do anything for fear you'll offend him. And you don't see that in Christian theology.
You don't see it in St. Paul. You don't see it in the New Testament. You don't see it in the Church Fathers. But then there are waves of it where you'll see it and you'll see a wave of it where people say, now we mustn't do anything disrespectful. For instance, the period of Protestantism that didn't want to sing any hymns that were not direct quotations of Scripture. And then poor Isaac Watts. Thank God he broke out
of that straitjacket. And Isaac Watts, he had to have a biblical text put for every one of the hymns he wrote because he wasn't doing just singing the Psalms because he was in a church that only sang the Psalms. Oh, God, our help in ages past. That Psalm, you look at, oh, God, our help in ages past, our hope for years to come is Psalm 90. But he had to put Psalm 90 to justify writing
that hymn because they wouldn't let him sing it in church. [Staub] Is that why, this is interesting? Because in Bunyan, again, for those of you that read it, he'll make some allegorical comment and then he'll have in parenthesis five texts that you could look up. To make sure that, you know, if you want to see whether this is really true or not, you know, which is not common in an allegory where you're kind of giving little hints
as to where you go to find out the authoritative. [Palmer] But, you know, you think of it, Isaac Watts was scared to write hymns that weren't just the repetition of the Psalms, but were beginning to reflect on the Psalms and beginning to bring in new themes. And he had to justify that. [Staub] Today, we hear a lot about seekers. You know, Gallup says 82% of Americans say they're on a spiritual journey. They're seeking. And unfortunately, that statistic
hasn't changed over the last decade. So a lot of people are seeking, not many people are finding. But what's interesting about this story is he's talking about the spiritual journey, a pilgrimage. But most of it happens after he's kind of found forgiveness. And it's an interesting look at the progressive nature of a walk with God. And was that in vogue at the time or was that something that was kind of? [Palmer] That's what I think is so
subtle about this book is, and I alerted you to that, he has his salvation experience right away. And then all these horrific things happen in true, internally as well, like here, considering suicide and actually toying with that idea. What even thinking I think I choose strangling, he said, to being here. That means he's actually picked a method. And why would a Christian ever do that? You see, it showed that he knew that he, the burden had
fallen off his back. Christ had had forgiven him at the Calvary. And yet still he has to go to the Valley of Humiliation and face Apollyon. He has to go to the city of Vanity Fair. Why did he have to go through Vanity Fair? Why not just skip the city? But he has to go through it with Faithful. And you'll see has to cross the river later. He has a lot of things he
has to do. And then he gets tired and he and he gets off the path. Well, it's really interesting. And again, you say if you get off the path, can you ever get back on the path? Yes, you can. So you might say Bunyan is really, he is not a fatalist. He is I mean, he's got subtle themes. That's why I wanted you to see the ambiguities that are present, which shows a tremendous subtlety in this
book from the 1600s. It's just I think it's astounding. [Staub] He's also not a pietist internally. He's basically saying your spiritual journey is in the world, in the world. You don't withdraw from the world to become more spiritual like a monastic model. No, you know, you plunge yourself deeper into it, which is really interesting to me. He also is making us aware that the spiritual journey towards some sort of depth of spiritual journey is a really
difficult one. I just read Scott Cairns, the poet's book about his journey into the Greek Orthodox tradition. And what struck me about the book is he went to Athos and to all the monasteries and stuff. And at least 50% of monasteries, were like they made it like really hard for him to be there, to do anything there. And I was thinking, man, like this is the opposite of American churches these days, just making it so
easy and come on in. We got balloons and coffee and, you know, it's I think Bunyan's view of spiritual depth is timeless. But that's what makes it timely today, because where do you see that kind of determination to live and grow and have a progressive spiritual journey like you see it in him? [Palmer] And yet it's always temptable. You can be tempted. Karl Barth has that wonderful line that no harm must be done to God's freedom. And
no harm must be done to our critical choice. And the fact that no harm is done to our critical choice means we really make decisions and they do count. And that means temptation is a reality. And I love that scene in Giant Despair's Castle because they are forced to make a decision. And Hopeful plays a wonderful role with Christian in giving that splash of cold water and saying, hey, we got to be careful. We're going to
go against God's will. His will said we shall not murder. And that's the one we belong to. We've got and so that holds him. Notice it's interesting Bunyan doesn't say that settled it for Christian. He said it moderated him for a while. It calmed him down enough that he could then and then finally that wonderful moment when it dawns on him that he does have a promise that a promise was given to him and he has
a right to claim it. And that wonderful right again to me it's not it's not pietistically irrelevant. It's pietistically relevant that you don't know you have a key right away. You ever think about that right away? You don't know you have a key or that the key could be for you. It's almost like Peter needing that breakfast with Jesus to say, do you love me? Do you love me? Here's the key. And but you don't know
it right away. And though they go three days not knowing that there was a promise he could claim. And I think Bunyan is so profound in seeing that. [Staub] Well and it's also profound when he says to act on the little bit of light you have. Instead of being worried that you don't see the whole journey. Just what light do you have? Do you see a little light go, that far? And then when you get there
there'll be another. [Palmer] Yeah there was a great evangelist that I remember hearing once who said it's like getting on a train. It's a long he says you get on the train in New York to go to Chattanooga. It's a long time before you get to Chattanooga. But it's not very long and you're away from New York. And in a way as you get more light you see more and more. And gradually and there is that.
Now some theologians would not like that. They would rather have you the light right away. And you know we do have that thing in us that we kind of like to have instant discovery. Instant breakthrough. Well frankly I've never experienced that way. And I don't and of course Bunyan obviously didn't. And so we should be grateful that Bunyan had that wonderful realism. [Staub] There's a, when I thought of Pilgrim's Progress before rereading it. I thought
of it as an individual journey. But then I was reminded that it's like Fellowship of the Rings. Where you know you can't make this journey. Frodo can't make that journey without Samwise. And without the fellowship and you have that same thing in Bunyan. It's a very individualistic age in which he's living. And nevertheless he needed Mr. Hopeful with him. It's a great reminder that the spiritual journey is not an individual journey alone. It has very
individual lonely moments. But it's one that is accomplished with others. [Palmer] You know I really think that's again so interesting. You would expect that a person like Bunyan who was thrown into solitary confinement. Thrown into prison could develop a kind of singular heroic spirit. And that I survived. I made it. I had the Lord of course. But I made it with the Lord. But he doesn't tell that kind of story in Pilgrim's Progress. Christian made it with
Faithful. He made it with Help. He made it with Great Heart. Oh you haven't met Great Heart yet. Great heart is so wonderful. And he met it with Hopeful. He didn't meet it by himself. And he had a just like Frodo and Samwise. They went together. Oh it's beautiful. [Staub] Now you mentioned at the very outset of the book that in his dream he saw a man. And this man was carrying a very heavy burden. And when
he's asked, how came you by the burden? He said by this book. Almost sounds like the Bible's, a negative. You know it's giving him a burden. That kind of awareness of the burden is what took him to the cross. Then what role does the Bible play from that point on? It got him to the cross. It got the burden off his back. But now he's in this whole next phase of the journey. What is there a
more positive role for the Bible the rest of the journey? [Palmer] Yeah in the I think Bunyan's continual quotation of text. The poems he writes. He writes and I didn't read any of his poems. But Bunyan writes poems throughout. There's a poem by the way at the end of the time with Giant Despair. He writes a poem or rather Christian makes a poem up when they get. When they got to the king's. Okay now when they had
gone over the style they came to the... to contrive with themselves what they should do at the style to prevent others to fall into the hands of Giant Despair. So they consented to erect there a pillar and to engrave on the side there of a sentence. Over this style is the way to Doubting Castle which is kept by Giant Despair who despiseth the king of the celestial country and seeks to destroy the holy pilgrims.
Many therefore that followed after read what was written and escaped the danger. And this done they sang as follows. And then comes one of the Bunyan hymns. Out of the way we went and when we found what was to tread upon forbidden ground and let them that come after have a care lest heedlessly make them as we to fare. Lest they for trespassing his prisoners are whose castles doubting and whose names despair. Now that's the pillar
they put there. It's a word of witness. It's their witness and in a sense as you know when he puts all the biblical texts that back up his stuff but in a way the Bible is seen as a witness and he gets to play that role to giving a witness to urge the people to go the right way. [Staub] How would you say what's Bunyan's definition of sin? I mean he's got this burden and then he's tempted.
And in reading about Bunyan I read that in his biography he confessed to certain sins in his own life. Profanity, dancing and bell ringing. Now I have no idea what bell ringing is but I don't plan on doing it anymore just in case. But then I read that even the most proficient swearers were known to remark that Bunyan was the ungodliest fellow for swearing they ever heard before he had his own conversion experience because he was
so good with words. I mean just think if he can make up all these fun names wow what kind of swear words did he invent by combining words. But I mean was there there's a today 20th century 21st century there was that book by Menninger Whatever Happened to Sin. I mean sin is almost viewed by many people as an anachronism. So Bunyan's book was in an era where there was this great sense of sin and the
quest for holiness and that was very much part of the culture of Maloo. Is his view of sin kind of rooted in a 1600s view or is it more contemporary than that? [Palmer] Well I don't know I think, if you are in an age where everybody is highly aware of sin, I mean that's probably true if you look to that era, but then you don't need to continually make that case as much. If you're in
an era where no one is aware of sin, then you're going to make that case more. So it seems to me he makes the case more for the fact that in the middle of the sin there are these steps that the master builder has put in the Slew of Dispond. In the Valley of Humiliation, Apollyon remember that the Lion is ferocious but tied. He can't quite get to you. There's this sense of
restraint of God's restraint upon evil. So in a way I think he feels he doesn't have to make the case of how evil, evil is. Look at the names he comes up with in the Vanity Fair but yet there is a restraint even though it didn't save Faithful. He has a martyr in his story and Faithful is a martyr but still there's a restraint and there's a restraint on Giant Dispair. He has fits. I love that
he looks so strong but he he does have fits and when he has fits he loses strength and those are a restraint. [Staub] Yeah two more quick questions and we're going to take a break and then we'll get to any questions from our live audience. First there is there is something interesting about Bunyan because when you when you look at his personal life and he went to jail twice and what he went to jail for was a
law that prohibited the holding of religious services outside the auspices of the established Church of England. So he was a guy that said, that church is not true, is not real, is not and so he started this other became part of this movement. And it struck me that that has kind of an eerie similarity to today. We were just talking with somebody about we're in post-denominational age and denominations are changing their names, like what was
the name that the General Baptist have now become convergence, Converge Worldwide is the name of their movement. I'm on a history channel special on Easter Sunday on the lost 40 days and it's what happened between the resurrection and the ascension and they have all sorts of you know different religious viewpoints represented and so there'll be Marcus Borg and Tim Keller there'll be a whole bunch and they keep asking me please tell it they're asking me what
denomination are you? And I said, I don't know I'm at a Community Church and I asked Earl what would you say. And he says well your church is really inter-denominational. Well it's kind of non-denominational, and then he said I think you should call yourself trans-denominational. Whoo Hoo! Kind of pastor to the galaxy. I like it! But it strikes me that the denominational attitude and the traditionalist attitude towards the emergent church movement, and the experimentation of
someone like a Brian McLaren, is kind of similar to the official church in Bunyan's day. What are you doing going outside the denominational structure and start planting a missional church, when there's all these wonderful churches all around you. And it struck me, wow, you know it's very similar, or is it not? I mean the kind of the official authorized church, versus these upstarts and remember Bunyan was only 30 years old when he was thrown in
prison for trying to start a church. He was young. I'm saying this a little bit confessionally because I'm concerned about the kind of franchise model of the church, that anybody that wants to can go out and start when I get a key to the door, and you know and it's like you have any like sense of history, do you have any training in exegeting scripture, do you... So on the one hand, I have
that learning, but on the other hand I read this and thought would Bunyan have been doing that today. And would the attitude of denominationalist towards him be one of kind of fear and condemnation? Am I putting you on the spot? Well, but then with the quest with the serious reader, that has to do with the non-denominational person or anything else. What are they actually doing? Is the fruit godly or is the fruit reckless, and I think that's still the acid test. Is this
is it faithful to the great truths or is this a reckless vectoring. If it's reckless vectoring, it could be done with a denominational tag, just like it can be done with a non-denominational tag. [Staub] That's a good word. [Palmer] The key is what's being taught! [Staub] It's good to have wise mentors isn't it? But I'm serious. it's one of the things I love about Earl I can come to him with things like that and he'll give me
something that really helps me and that did help me. Final question, Earl is that Nigel Goodwin's here tonight and we're all greatly appreciative of C.S. Lewis and Lewis one of his first books in his faith journey was Pilgrim's Regress. What was the influence of Pilgrim's Progress on Lewis's approach in Pilgrim's Regress? [Palmer] Well I think, I think he is, it's going for a [?]too and also he is playing with words and playing with...
what everybody thinks is, and the reason Lewis got punished for that book is it's so obvious that he's making fun of the academic, the captivity, the emotional and spiritual captivity of academic snobbery. And since the people in Oxford figured that he was writing about them they punished him for the rest of his career for writing that book. So he, it was a sophomoric, it was sophomoric... and it was autobiographical... yes but it was written too hastily
probably, and so Lewis paid a price for that. But because it's true he tackled Oxford, it's Oxford that is the villain in the book. And Oxford never thought of itself as a villain. The other school, yes, but not Oxford. [Staub] But the other school also would take an alternative position. The Oxford / Cambridge battle lives on years later. Well this is Dick Staub you're listening to the Kindlings Muse at Earl Palmer Ministries talking about John Bunyan's Pilgrim progress
we'll be back with some concluding comments and questions from our live audience. [Music Break] Well this is Dick Staub back with you. You're listening to Kindlings Muse at Earl Palmer Ministries and we're talking tonight about John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, written over 400 years ago, still in print and we're still talking about it. And we're going to get right out and start asking, hearing what some of the questions of our live audience might be and we're going to get
started with [Ed] I'm intrigued by the story but more so by the method that Bunyan uses and that's this being on the road in this journey and there's so many stories that are like that Canterbury Tales for instance or Frodo's journey or so many of the parables too where there's always these experiences at Good Samaritan on the road to some place and it's sort of like progression and faith is measured in time and miles and we
don't take those kind of journeys quite so often anymore by foot. We travel fast. We travel to Europe by plane, all this. We don't measure our time quite the way these stories do, are quite... our progress I mean. And I guess that's what intrigues me about the book a lot you know is this how progression is measured by going from one place to another. And how do we relate to that today because we don't
measure our progress towards heaven or you know Celestial City, the same way. [Palmer] Yeah, I think it's that is a wonderful insight, you know, the word road is so key in the Old Testament too, because, Yarah, is to throw the stone and that becomes the word for way, and then Torah which becomes the word for law in Hebrew is the way, see the way, where the Yara where the road rock was thrown and so all
of the language like Psalm 119 and all of this language of the Christian pilgrimage and of growth and of Christian life, goes back to the Old Testament as well as New Testament, is roadway language. And as you know the Christians were first called the people of the way. They were called the people of the way, and then of course they were called Christians. But, I love that kind of language and what
it what I was thinking of too where you use the word roadway as such a intriguing use of imagery too. Lewis has that wonderful scene where you're walking on a trail and he says it when you're on a trail going to the city at some points you're closer to the city in terms of a direct line but as you follow the trail you end up further from the city in terms of actual walking distance, yet
you are closer now if that isn't intriguing that's Lewis's imagery that that when you're on a trail that winds on a mountain pass there are times when you're actually further from your destination apparently but not really if you're seeing it as a road that you're on. But it helps you understand sometimes the digressions in your life. You say wow what a digression I spent two years of my life doing this, I should have been, I
could have gone straight to my target. Well maybe not, maybe that digression that period where you were apparently in another area it was still the road that was going to finally bring you to the right place. I just think it's great imagery and it's great imagery for discipleship and I'm glad we're you're using it. And I'm glad we're using it. [Staub] Mike your question. [Mike] okay first thank you for introducing me to Pilgrim's Progress it was quite a
revelation for me. A question. I'm fascinated with time this was written in the 1600s and today I'm thinking about the theology of the book and after so many thousands and maybe millions of books that have been written is there any bad theology in Pilgrim's Progress? [Palmer] Okay, bad theology, wow, [?] criticized for being too individualistic. I don't call that bad theology I call it a truthful aspect of the theological journey
that can vector away, in other words when you're focusing on your own self, because he was obviously it's focused on this man and his own journey, and if you might say a little that goes a long way in your life because is it narcissistic? that you're focused on your own journey. And it and the book has been criticized for that. That it's, but I still think Dick gave the right insight to it that
it's a little bit like is Frodo focused on just his own journey no, and there is others, there's Samwise that's with him and then of course the Gandalf the great wizard is keeping an eye on him too, and then the great eagle that comes to rescue them. No, he's not by himself. So, no I wouldn't say there's in my opinion it's in the pietistic tradition of you might say, English Christianity, that I think is valid
and, but I do think in every theological, you might say model, there is always the danger of it vectoring away and needs therefore to be back in with the law and the gospel. I love Luther's rule of thumb, the law and the gospel will bring us back to center, bring us back to Jesus Christ who is a living center. And so I think the book is Christo centric and I think the book is healthy, and I
and I love the awareness of ambiguity. I'm always worried about Christian pietism, it's not aware of my own ambiguity; and you get the kind of perfectionism is taught or you get kind of the kind of the, the dark side of heroism. I mean the thing that produced the the crusades was bad theology. It was sinful and yet it was glorified as being we're doing this for God. But it and I think, you don't see that in
Bunyan. I think Bunyan has a wholeness there that and that's that awareness of his own ambiguity which I think comes out in the scene that I chose to have us really look at in depth. [Staub] okay your question. [?] I love this book and I heard you preach years ago on the damnable lock, and have fitted that at so many different points in my life. I keep running into locks that are damnable hard but the
key will open them. My question is what would Bunyan say to us, in this Christian culture in America permeated with the idea of attaining a standard of the effective life. The, I don't want to use spirit filled because of we're filled with his spirit, but the effective life, the victorious life, this is why this book is such a balm to me, is because it is so full of downs and ups. What would he say to this
sense of arriving? [Palmer] You know, you're right we do have a kind of, we're intoxicated with instantaneous solutions and quick solutions and power, to have power in our lives. And I think it is true that that is a good anecdote for that, because there's a kind of a servanthood here and a willingness to face up to my own frailty. And then and then the discovery of grace. He wrote a book on grace too, you know that's
in the other book he wrote. But it I make the discovery of grace, you know John Newton when you think of his Amazing Grace that great hymn has that same mixture that's in Bunyan. You know, you think of the first stanza Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. And then you take that second stanza, T'was grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. And you know, that is
just like Pilgrim's Progress, that wonderful awareness of grace, but it's not a grace that was grace that made me win every battle battle. I won every time with grace, oh no. There grace also made me fear, grace also brought me down, but was with me when, in that down, and then I had that promise key that I could hold. I do love, I agree with you, I love that line but that lock
went damnable hard yet the key did open it. And I think that's a great, there's the Christian victory that claims [Staub] Thank you. Nigel Goodwin, Nigel has a question. I'm scared of this question. Well he always says God is more interested than the Q than the A, Dick, so he probably doesn't really expect an answer. His English is so poor. [Nigel] Well mine is more an observation that 400 years ago, 1611 the King James
Bible came for the people to read, accessibility, the word became flesh, fresh flesh translated, accessible, and Bunyan I guess would be my math isn't great about ten he's what 1628 did you say? So when he's about ten, he's absorbed from the womb on in his childhood, with this meta narrative, with the grand story, he really knows, loves is bathed in the story, in the myth and the history, the ancient ways. He really knows it. Today
we've killed the story, the story is off stage except for the few who know the story on stage in their lives. How might we serve the story today, in new and fresh ways? With all the technology that we have, every single person is a story in the telling, but they don't know it, and they don't know how to tell it. [Palmer] Yeah, you know, isn't it beautiful that if you know The Story, like the life of
Jesus Christ, which is The Story, you know it's interesting that we sometimes forget and we need to be reminded that when you ask the question, what was it that the early church preached when they preached the good news? What did they preach? Because you see Luke has shortened the speeches like the speech that Peter gave on day of Pentecost takes two minutes for me to read it to you, but we know that Peter preached a lot
longer than two minutes on day of Pentecost. So where is it shortened, if you look through the speech in Luke's account, he says he when he this Jesus attested to you by mighty works, you crucified but death could not hold him right there, I believe you could insert the book of Mark. That when Peter preached, in fact I think the book of Mark is a good example of Peter's preaching, of the first century preaching. And if
you want to know what Paul preached on a mount on Mars Hill, right where it says in that that speech. I've seen it on bronze plaque in the Areopagus in Greece is there the government put it up. But it only takes two and a half minutes to read it. But we know that at the Areopagus people spoke all day long. Luke even says so. That's what they did, they talked all day long. What did
Paul say? Right there where it says when he told them about the resurrection some mocked him, and I think right there you could insert the book of Luke. And great parts of the book of Luke, because Luke was with Paul, and he heard him. So what is the story, the story is the life of Jesus Christ. And it seems to me when you know that story, it makes your story tellable. And because if the good
news is the story of the life of Jesus Christ and his death and his victory, it upgrades the story of every human being. Because he is the man, and I think when the gospel is not the story, when that is when we start making it just uh you know exhortations that we give people you should do this or you should do that and you should have faith because I have faith and stuff like that, then we're
not, that story is not being put into the life of the people. But when the story is there, then my story becomes more meaningful. [Staub] All right [Jonathan] It's a pilgrimage right, but uh and so the pilgrimage story is center but I was rather disappointed with the way Faithful was dealt with and Faithful, it would seem to be worth more and also if Faithful is executed, we just sort of move on with the story,
it suggests that there's something that's not developed about Faithful. I don't know. [Palmer] Yeah, he, Faithful is killed because he is such a disappointment to all those people at,... and you saw there the accusations about him and he held to the faith. I think Bunyan maybe there is that is a little bit about, that's autobiographical; That I was faithful and that's why I got thrown in jail. If I hadn't been faithful
I wouldn't have been thrown in jail. By the way just today I was reading about Martin Neimoller my one of my heroes because I was in Beeson just a couple days ago giving lectures on the Barmen Declaration and Martin Neimoller is one of the writers of the Barmen Declaration with Karl Barth and I got the chance at Beeson to do the expositions of all the biblical texts that were used for the six
articles of the Barman Declaration but just yesterday no today I was reading about Martin Neimoller and I didn't even realize this in fact where I read it this is so funny I was reading the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church and I wanted to read up on Bunyan and then I when I start reading up on something and I start going through the pages and reading up other heroes there was Martin Neimoller so I read about
Martin and the Oxford Dictionary says this about Neimoller you know he was a famous submarine captain in World War I and all and then he became a pastor and after the Barmen Declaration he was marked man and he was put in a Gestapo prison in 1937 and he was offered the ability to get out of that prison if he would only buy into and accept the German folk because he was the hero of Germany he
was a war hero so everybody knew Martin Neimoller and he refused to do it, but he was he stayed faithful now he didn't get executed like Bonhoeffer did, thank God for that he did not get executed but he had a chance to get out of the prison if he would have only compromised at what was his faith and he refused to do it, and so he to spend out the rest of his time in the in
the Nazi prison camp. But it's just interesting isn't it how if you were willing to go along with Vanity Fair that you wouldn't have he would not have been executed. And so I think Bunyan is doing a little bit of autobiographical referencing there you know. [Staub] Paul your question. [Paul] As you were talking, I couldn't help but reflect on a contemporary dream allegory that I know you discussed here I believe last year, The Shack, and I wondered if
Bunyan was pilloried after he wrote the book like the author of The Shack was, he'd had his suffering before the book and obviously wrote the book in prison. What was the response afterwards? [Palmer] No, I don't think he was, by then you see he was in prison for the second time for only six months and that's when he wrote the book and after that the royalists were out of favor and the political party, political climate
in England changed and so he I don't think was persecuted. If he'd written it maybe early in his life when he was in prison the first time, he would have paid a heavier price, but he wrote it in the second imprisonment. [Staub] Any final comments tonight? [Palmer] No but I thank you for the comments you've all made. It's been a, I think it's a it's nice, last week someone said thank you for this class I didn't even
know who John Stott was, and you know I thought man if you don't know who John Stott is he's one of the great heroes of our of our century. And so I felt well I did a good job then in least helping you to know who John Stott was. Well maybe now what you said made me so happy to know that now you know who John Bunyan is, it's a gift read it together, my wife
and I read Bunyan it was the first book I think we read together as a young couple just for the fun of it we read it together it's very fun to read together, [Staub] Oh, Earl, you romantic, you of all the things you could have chosen for Shirley, let's curl up with Pilgrim's Progress. That's great! Well this is always fun, thank you so much Earl for being with us tonight. Folks you're listening to the Kindlings Muse at
Earl Palmer Ministries. I'll be sure to look up online what's coming up next and what is coming up next is J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings which would be another great discussion until next time this is Dick Staub the Kindlings Muse at Earl Palmer Ministries, enjoy the podcast and we'll see you next evening.